Intro
My guest this week on Contributions is the lovely Nejeed Kassam. Nejeed is an old friend of mine, he is the Founder and CEO of Keela, which is a nonprofit CRM donor management solution based here in Vancouver, but with customers all around the world. Nejeed has just a fascinating history. He started life as a lawyer and had a very influential and impressive career in that field. He has also held various different roles in not only the executive office, but also in nonprofit organizations as well. He then made the full leap to the nonprofit sector, focusing on Keela full-time in 2014/2015 and has really built up a fascinating business that serves 1000s of nonprofit organizations and is continually evolving. He's the Co-Founder of an AI analytics solution for nonprofit organizations. He and I have a lot in common, he’s great to chat with, a new father, and I have no doubt you're going to love this conversation. So, enjoy.
Contributions with Nejeed Kassam
Andrew Mosawi
Nejeed, good to see you.
Nejeed Kassam
Andrew, it's a pleasure to be here.
Andrew Mosawi
I remember what seemed like only yesterday when we would have lovely lunches because you're in Vancouver just down the road from me.
Nejeed Kassam
Yes, sir.
Andrew Mosawi
You might as well be 1000 miles away, let alone...
Nejeed Kassam
Well, it's the Wimbledon semi finals. So in my heart I'm definitely in the middle of London right now.
Andrew Mosawi
You know, this is going off on a tangent so soon in Contributions, but of course I grew up in Henley on the Thames and it’s the royal regatta, the rowing regatta right now, it coincides with the finale of Wimbledon.
Nejeed Kassam
Second week of Wimbledon, right?
Andrew Mosawi
And then apparently there's some kind of football thing going on?
Nejeed Kassam
Ha ha ha! Well, what I will say, and I don't think this would have been mentioned in my introduction, but I'm English, reluctantly sometimes, but I'm English. My family grew up in England. I was born in Canada but very proud to hold the British passport and so I think it's been a good week for my family. My dad's a bit of a football nut, so he's pretty happy about the finals appearance. And obviously, as a tennis player, Wimbledon SW 19 has got a big, big place in my heart. And as a very proud Oxford dropout, I'm very happy to be supporting Oxford at the regatta this weekend.
Andrew Mosawi
Well, wonderful. And yeah, I should mention to everyone, as I said in the intro, certainly Nejeed, you and I have so many different shared loves in terms of how most of our conversations relate to, you know, talking about different parts of the world that we've enjoyed spending time in.
Nejeed Kassam
Yes, sir.
Andrew Mosawi
And now we both find ourselves in Vancouver and both running technology and FinTech companies for the nonprofit sector specifically, and my goodness me you come to this from a bit of a different and very impressive place.
Nejeed Kassam
I don’t know about impressive, but unique.
Andrew Mosawi
You're being too kind to yourself. I'm fascinated because you obviously practice law, you had a fantastically impressive career ahead of you in the legal profession. Not only were you doing that but you're a published author, you set up and run nonprofit organizations as well. You obviously now run Keela, you founded it. Tell us about the journey to get there.
Nejeed Kassam
Yeah, you know, there are some leaders whose wisdom I've listened to for years that talk about how we don't have one career, we have a series of intersecting careers. Our journeys are not, you know, a straight line or a direct path. The circuitiveness of it is the beauty of it, but it also creates the richness and the fabric of our journeys. And I think, for me, that is how I've gotten here, but it actually starts much farther back than, you know, me. It speaks to the last few generations of my family. So, as you can see, when I'm not in COVID and shaved properly, I'm from South Asia from what is now India and Pakistan. And a couple of generations ago, our families fled persecution in India, and what was then the British Raj and the transition in the 1870s on one side of my family and in 1945 on the other. So they moved to the east coast of Africa, to Tanzania where I have family from Kenya and Uganda. And then, of course, with the tumultuousness that happened in the late 60s and early 70s in Eastern Africa for folks who look like us, our families kind of fled England, and that's where sort of my genesis happens. My parents met there. And so, you know, I was born in Canada, because my parents were chasing economic opportunity here, but I could have been born in London. My mom and dad taught me that the struggles of our past, the support from civil society that they received, as you know, 10 year olds or whatever they were when they moved to London, were what made us the family we are today which is what gave us the opportunities. My parents are dentists. They're wonderful. They have an incredibly boring profession, but they've provided us a life that they were not able to have themselves and, you know, their hard work, their dedication, their passion, but also the support they received from civil society led them to imbue in us the importance of giving back and engagement. And so my relationship with the not for profit sector and for charities actually started when I was three. So that was when I started volunteering, my mum and dad would take us door to door and we would raise money for, you know, global poverty or whatever it might be, the different causes as kids, very little kids. And it was very effective, by the way, when a three year old asks you to give money, I think it's hard to say no, right? And so that was the genesis of my relationship in the sector. And over the past 33 years, almost now since I was three. I’m in my mid 30s now, and I've been blessed to have the opportunity to hold so many different positions in charities, nonprofits, international organizations, and in politics. And all of that has been part of this ethos of service that my mom and dad inspired in all of us.
Andrew Mosawi
Isn't that interesting, because I forget how similar I mean, obviously, with my accent and complexion, I'm British. I was born and brought up there, but my father is, as you well know, Iraqi. You know, I'm the child of an immigrant and a refugee, he left when Sadam took over back in the 60s. It's interesting, because even though my mom is Welsh, which is a fantastic, you know, a Welsh Iraqi there aren't that many of us. It's a similar value system that was built in me by my parents. So I think that resonates.
Nejeed Kassam
Because values are defined, and they and they direct our lives and our work and our families. And so I think, while that path you spoke of may seem circuitous, and I've been blessed with opportunity, it has all been defined and redefined by these core sets of values not dissimilar from yours.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, and I love what you're talking about, circuitiveness. There was actually a Steve Jobs commencement speech where he talked about painting the dots. He said you can't paint the dots going forward, you have to paint the dots going back. That's a wonderful message.
Nejeed Kassam
I think it also gives hope to young folks because you know, I have the privilege now to mentor so many young people who speak to me almost hyperbolically about their fear that they have. First they go to law school, then they graduate, then they article, then they become an associate, then they become a partner, etc.. And you know, so much of the journey is not knowing that and discovering that and pushing yourself and being uncomfortable getting there. And I feel very proud and very grateful that I've had that.
Andrew Mosawi
Now, I'll talk a little bit about the transition in a minute but obviously you started in earnest work or you started, I should stay, with the concept of Keela back in what? 2015?
Nejeed Kassam
Something like that. Yeah.
Andrew Mosawi
And then, at some point in time you went yes, the law is the law...
Nejeed Kassam
I blame my wife, to be honest with you. My wife is this brilliant, wonderful, amazing mother, brilliant executive, but she wanted to move us to Vancouver. So I was born here, but I was in Toronto, and really the only places that I was really excited about living were Toronto and London. And so I did my lot after I dropped out of Oxford where I was doing my M Phil. I went to law school in Toronto, and I was sort of very happy along that route. And we'll talk about Keela in a second. But I don't know that I would have never been a full-time tech CEO, certainly not without the move my wife made to Vancouver. So you know, kind of going back a couple steps, I was sitting on the board of a nonprofit in Toronto, we built social justice curricula for the Toronto school board. It was a really amazing opportunity. We were small, we had a $100,000 a year budget, or something like that and we needed technology. And we were really frustrated. I think I was the youngest or the second youngest person on the board. And I was really frustrated by the tech offerings. And I was like, you know, I could build that. No, I couldn't for the record. But thank the good Lord, that I was able to get where I am. But that was the journey. It was like I was the problem. I felt the problem. I was experiencing the pain. And I saw software as an opportunity to democratize access to incredible processes to show how organizations could raise money. And so kind of stupidly, to be honest, I was like, I'll do it. And it took me a lot of mistakes, a lot of humility, and a couple of great partners in the early days to really, you know, kind of figure out what we wanted to do and this was a thing off the side of my Bay Street desk. But then we got a little bit of traction, we got some excitement. And then my wife said, you know, I want to move home and I said, you know, she's a better lawyer than I am. She's also a lawyer, she won that argument. So when we moved, I kind of, I took the jump. And that was in the summer of 2016.
Andrew Mosawi
And so let's fast forward to Keela now. I mean, you are obviously based here in Vancouver, but you have a client base that is very, very broad. I mean, for the viewers that aren't familiar, provide a snapshot of the success story of where it is now.
Nejeed Kassam
Well, success story in the making maybe, we've still got a lot of work to do, and a lot to learn. But you know, Keela is a donor management fundraising CRM and compliance tool built specifically for fundraising organizations doing generally less than $10 million a year. So this is for SMB-focused not for profits. Our technology is amazing. It is world class, we're compliant in of course, the United States and Canada, but also Australia and New Zealand, we process hundreds of millions of dollars in payments, both online and offline. We, you know, we really stick to our roots sticking up for the little ones, you know, the organizations that are doing $780 thousand or $2.2 million, and they're hustling, they don't have the resources. We think about our problems as how do we make our tools as easy and powerful as possible? How do we automate? How do we bring artificial intelligence and machine learning to their fundraising and their day to day operations? How do we take care of things like compliance? And, you know, we see this as a rocket ship for those SMB nonprofits.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, it's interesting, because I think from that, and from the learning that you've got there, you've learned as you've really dug into the charity or the organization's need, you're also uncovering other opportunities and other areas to be able to help. And I know you and I have had conversations a while back now about that analytic side, about how to really use data to get insights as opposed to a mechanism with which to...
Nejeed Kassam
Ultimately it's a tool, right? You know, I think it was Beth Kanter book about how stressed out the nonprofit sector is, and Beth is a friend and a fellow board member of mine at N10. And, you know, I think I don't know if it was that or something in my subconscious, I was actually in the shower. This is a true story. Because I thought to myself, you know, a friend of mine works at a logistics company that does logistics analytics, and I was thinking, why can't we use intelligence? We have business intelligence, we have sales intelligence, let's make fundraising intelligence. Let's use data and the power and the richness of the history organizations have to help them work better. You know, computers and, ultimately, now artificial intelligence, are able to do things that we as humans simply cannot do not because we don't have the skills, but because we don't have the bandwidth, right? I mean, you give a fundraiser an Excel document and 2000 hours, they can probably figure something out. Can you do that in two seconds? And so that began the journey of incubating this idea internally with a couple of folks on my team, how do we create a new class of software that's called fundraising intelligence? And empower every fundraiser with data science and, ultimately, help them ask more efficiently, help them visualize things better, help them not have to go looking to have opportunities come to them, or the preconditions of opportunities come to them. And that really is a passion I hold, to increasingly extend data and artificial intelligence into the fundraising world in a way that's still human. You're not automating fundraising, you're not taking away the role of the fundraisers, you're simply empowering.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah. You know, you touched on an interesting point there in terms of the sector itself, everyone likes to think that their sector is different. What is it that you see a fundamental difference in the nonprofit sector and why it demands and deserves the level of specificity that really is required to make it successful? Why is it so different? And what is your experience there?
Nejeed Kassam
You know, the existence of the sector is to serve, right? Ultimately, this is a sector to serve. And I don't mean in the sense of hospitality service. I mean, like, you're there because you want to, for no other reason than the positive upliftment of the human spirit and of your fellow community members, make things better, right? We may disagree about what people are advocating for, we may disagree about the best mechanisms to alleviate poverty or fight climate change, or, you know, whatever it might be, but ultimately, every member of the sector wakes up every morning, and is passionate about making things better.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah.
Nejeed Kassam
That is in and of itself fundamentally different, right? Yes, of course, corporations are finally waking up to say, oh we should create impact, we should have social benefit. But our sector, which is one of the oldest sectors in the world, giving is 10s, of 1000s, of years old, has been doing that time immemorial, right? It's in the Bible, it's in the Quran, it's in the Torah, it's in the Vedas, like giving back is inherent to it. And so that's one thing that's different. And secondly, to do all that, fundamentally, you're relying on the generosity of others, right? As opposed to the benefit. If I go to a restaurant, I'm giving them money in legal terms, that's consideration, right? You give me what I get, and I give you something back. That's not how the sector works. And that in and of itself, I think creates the kind of uniqueness that deserves an entire industry for lack of a better word around it, because the values are different. The use cases are different. And ultimately, the people are different.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah. And the resourcing allocation is so fundamentally different as well. I talked about this with another guest a while back, Kevin Cramer, and we were talking about how fundamentally there is a misalignment because they are held to a higher standard of transparency than for profit organizations, yet, part of that, quote, unquote, transparency is transparency around resourcing and investment. And so they're expected to have a higher level of output and transparency about what is accomplished in the impact, yet, at much lower levels of investment, then anywhere else. And that, to me, is this conflict.
Nejeed Kassam
And I think it's a double sided problem, and a double sided opportunity for that matter. The first problem is, we as organizations need to do a better job of advocating to our donors why that's irrelevant. Not irrelevant, like we shouldn't be held to great standards, we shouldn't be tracking our work and our output, and if we can, even our impact, but why those lazy metrics, and I'm going to say that, are actually not the right metrics or only the right metrics, right? You know, as a CEO, putting that hat back on, if you give me $10 and I spend 50%, on administration, but I'm able to create 20 widgets, versus you give me $10, I spend 10%, on administration, but I can make 10 widgets, obviously, it doesn't matter, right, the $10 is giving me a better ROI. Yeah, we as a sector need to advocate for the right metrics and show our value in that way, and that's on us. At the same time, there needs to be an education of donors. And I put this on the sector, on the government, on parents. I'm a young parent, you're a young parent of three, you know, we have to do a better job teaching our children about giving, making that as much a part of their lives as healthy eating or saving. And I don't mean to minimize those things. It's just, it's a core of our society, 5.6% of the US GDP is spent in the nonprofit sector. It’s financially and fundamentally incredibly important. And so we as a society need to train donors better. And that's a combination of organizations advocating and being better about transparency and showing, but also having a bit of a mindset shift, and I think it's a generational thing.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, it's interesting because it is kind of a cultural thing as well. I mean, what I found fascinating when I was wearing a previous hat at Blackboard, is that we did a lot of work around the world, but also, the Netherlands has the highest percentage of its employees who work in the nonprofit sector. I mean, it's really interesting. And then you talk about Oxford, I was at one of the universities and a man was giving a speech about giving in higher education. And the gentleman was talking about how in the UK, you know, “my university never emails me and asks for money.” I mean...
Nejeed Kassam
Oxford emails me I have to say, actually.
Andrew Mosawi
Well, yeah there's a whole bunch of reasons behind that. Probably, you know, they're smarter targeting you than they are me anyway. But I think what's interesting is that he said the reason there's no culture of giving in higher education in the UK is that there's no culture of asking, which I thought was a beautiful way of saying it.
Nejeed Kassam
You know, my wife is the chair of the admissions committee for Stanford for British Columbia and I sit on the McGill, Western Canada regional board. And so we sort of see higher ed as part of our everyday service, right. And we both do it on a weekly or monthly basis. And Stanford is shameless. They're shameless. They just ask and ask and ask and it's just like, incredible. And at McGill, we don't do that, we ask in the same way but it's culturally different. And so I'm not gonna say whether it's better or worse, but I can tell you Stanford's endowment is a heck of a lot bigger than McGill's. And McGill is a world class University, arguably producing, you know, similar talent, but not seeing the return because of this culture. And so, you know, Stanford invests in it, they train...there's that culture of asking. Of course, there's more of Stanford's bloody swag in my house, blankets, and this and that, because it's like this pride that fosters giving. Of course, it does, as well as asking and all these other things.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, that's right. So one of the things that I'm interested in, and I ask a lot of tech CEOs and leadership on Contributions is, there's been a massive change in the profile of the sector in the last while, you know, I mean, I've been doing this, more or less for 20 years. There's a massive change in terms of the tech, the landscape of providers, etc. So we always jump to competition is better, or these things are better. But I'm fascinated to know what you think about just the evolution of that landscape, the service providers, what you think that means, where you think it's heading? What are the opportunities, risks, etc? What are your sort of overall thoughts?
Nejeed Kassam
So I'm of many minds, and I apologize in advance, because I don't know how articulated this series of thoughts is going to be, but you know, inherently, I am a capitalist, and I believe that competition breeds better. I think that if you are held to a standard by yourself, that's great. And at Keela, we do that phenomenally well, nobody holds us to a higher standard than we do ourselves. But that isn't always the case for everybody. And so if you have somebody chasing you, you're probably going to run a little bit faster. Whether you're being chased or doing the chasing, there is a benefit. But as long as it's done in the right way, so while that is wonderful and inspiring and for a former athlete, the idea that there's always a way to get better, and that not only is it on me to make me better, or us better, but there's other folks who we’re competing against, I think that actually is a great thing. At the same time it goes back to my previous comment, if you take the uniqueness, the difference, the people and the values out of it, that becomes where there's opportunities that could be worrying. And so as large financial players realize the scale and the scope and the opportunity in this market, I think it's imperative that the founders and the leaders and the technology providers and the service providers hold their values and they hold their ground on that to say, we are serving a sector that is a little different, and we need to reflect that in how we're building our companies, whether they're for or not for profit.
Andrew Mosawi
And do you think that the success or the key around which organizations are going to be successful serving the sector is code based enhancement? Or is it service based? Is it? Is it innovation?
Nejeed Kassam
I'm an innovator. Okay, that's a lie. I'm a pretend innovator. So I'm always going to go to innovation. From processes to technology, I think that if we are doing things the way that we've done for the last 25 years, which many tech companies and nonprofits fall prey to, we're going to fall behind, we're gonna be in trouble. I think that innovation is an opportunity as long as its values align.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, and I think that what we tend to see also is that innovation is sometimes not the easiest path, you know, sometimes the easiest path is just to replicate a process because it's the least path to a sale, as an example.
Nejeed Kassam
And that's where you get dangerous. That's the dangerous part, right? I think that's so important. That's the worry, right? It's like, oh, we can cut costs by 47% but I'm not saying don't cut costs. I'm saying do it to remember that people, let's call it people centric-innovation, right? You need the people you need to have values aligned, and then you've got to push whether it's innovating on processes, or people or technology or all of those things, really. I think you get rid of that and, ultimately, those folks might win in the short term, but lose in the long term.
Andrew Mosawi
Yeah. Fantastic.
Nejeed Kassam
I could be wrong.
Andrew Mosawi
I tell you, we could talk for hours, but I'm excited to hear about more. I mean, obviously, I want to make sure we're going to share information because I know that the new solution that you've co-founded and you're working on is fascinating. I'm excited about continuing to participate and learn more about Peter's journey as well. But I'm gonna put you through the same questions that I put absolutely everyone through. And so I hope you're prepared because this is time for the quick six. You know what they are, so they're going to come at you thick and fast. So okay, what is your least favourite app on your phone?
Nejeed Kassam
My parking app, pay by phone, not because the app isn't good, but because I hate paying for parking.
Andrew Mosawi
Fair, although I do have another friend who does say that the UI for that particular...
Nejeed Kassam
It's fantastic. It's fantastic.
Andrew Mosawi
Apart from the opening page, which should default, by the way, to the number of places you are, but you it doesn't default to that so...
Nejeed Kassam
And it doesn't remember your license plate which annoys me.
Andrew Mosawi
Yes, that's exactly. That's exactly right. Favourite song?
Nejeed Kassam
Depends on which Nejeed you're talking to, the civilized non-pandemic Nejeed would probably say Bach's Cello Suite No. 1 in G major, especially when it's played by Yo-Yo Ma. If you ever need a good cry, it's what beauty sounds like. How about that?
Andrew Mosawi
For me, it is Jacqueline Du Pre's version of Elgar's Cello Concerto, it’s a similar thing. Now, you are a father, you became a father, in COVID. What about you Nejeed, the dad, what is his favourite song?
Nejeed Kassam
Nejeed the dad is probably singing whatever helped my son say still when he's changing his diaper. I have a wonderful little boy, he's 15 months old. His name's Kian, but he does not sit still. He runs, he doesn't walk. He runs everywhere. So I'll sing, my wife and I have made up more songs than we possibly could have imagined. But I think every parent feels that. But the Nejeed late at night who's working until one in the morning is probably going to put on some old Kanye or some old P Diddy or something from the early 2000s. That’s kind of where my energy comes from. How about that? Bach and Kanye West. I don't know how to reconcile those. But, I'll leave it at that.
Andrew Mosawi
That's fair. Favourite movie?
Nejeed Kassam
So I will tell one story. I have a lifelong illness in my colon, I have colitis, I'm on medications, and there's a TV show called The West Wing. It's maybe the greatest TV show ever made. It got me through my six months in and out of hospital. So, the West Wing is my favourite television show. And I think Mission Impossible Two is my favourite movie. I know, that's terrible. I'm not a movie buff. It's uncivilized. But it is awesome.
Andrew Mosawi
Hey, no judgment, no judgment, and I love the specificity.
Nejeed Kassam
I love that movie, so.
Andrew Mosawi
Okay, if you could live anywhere, I know what the answer to this is gonna be, if you could live anywhere else in the world, where would that be?
Nejeed Kassam
London no question. No question. 100%, in fact, I asked my wife two weeks ago if we can move back.
Andrew Mosawi
I ask my wife every day. What is the first nonprofit organization you remember as a child?
Nejeed Kassam
So there's two, Covenant House here in Vancouver was one of the first volunteer opportunities I got outside of my parents. And the Aga Khan Foundation. Those are the two that I remember from my childhood the most.
Andrew Mosawi
I was lucky enough I went to Ottawa, the building that they have there is really quite architectural, it's stunning. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
Nejeed Kassam
So I'm going to exclude both lawyer and tech CEO because I feel like I wear two hats in my life. I think I'd like to be a sports executive. I am a passionate athlete, or former athlete. I have played at the highest levels in the world. I love sports. I love it. It's my guilty pleasure both being a fan, being an armchair analyst and playing, so I think a sports exact or something in the sports world would be the other life I had.
Andrew Mosawi
Fantastic. Fantastic. Nejeed thanks for the time, man. I really appreciate it.
Nejeed Kassam
Thank you, of course!
Andrew Mosawi
It's been lovely to see you.
Nejeed Kassam
You know and a pleasure, grateful to share the stage with such an eloquent and wonderful human being.
Andrew Mosawi
You're very kind, love to the family. Nice to see you and all the best and we'll speak soon. Cheers.
Nejeed Kassam
Thanks.
Andrew Mosawi is the President at iATS Payments, an integrated payment processor designed and built exclusively to meet the needs of nonprofits.
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