Contributions with Andrew Mosawi and Daryl Upsall

Welcome to the first edition of my video series Contributions. For those of you that prefer the written word, we’ve compiled the transcript of my recent conversation with my good friend Daryl Upsall below. We speak about many topics, but a discussion surrounded monthly giving, its prevalence internationally, and how successful that method is from a fundraising perspective was particularly interesting.

I hope you gain some small insight from the exchange and enjoy the banter of dear friends.

Andrew Mosawi
Hello, welcome to Contributions with me, Andrew Mosawi. My guest this week was my old friend Daryl Upsall. Daryl has been in the nonprofit sector for over 35 years, and started out straight after university in the UK, went on to run fundraising for the Terrence Higgins Trust, then on to lead fundraising internationally for Greenpeace, where he pioneered face-to-face fundraising. Since then, he went on to start his own company, Daryl Upsall Consulting based in Madrid serving organizations around the world. I think he's worked with hundreds and hundreds of organizations in over probably 80 countries over those 35 years. So, he's been in the sector a lot longer than I have. We had a fantastic conversation, we talked about what he's seen the changes that he's seen in that time, about his hopes and visions, and for the future of the sector, as well as the impact of COVID. And how that may fundamentally change the way that nonprofits operate. So, I had a blast catching up with my old friend, Daryl, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Daryl, it's great to see you.

Daryl Upsall
You too. How are you doing?

Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, doing well, I'm doing well. So, I understand you still do recruitment internationally. I see your posts on LinkedIn, you recruit for some of the largest international NGOs, but you also have really pioneered the use of face-to-face fundraising. Also, tele fundraising, you do a lot of that as well. We've seen face-to-face fundraising go from non-existent to being very prevalent in the major cities. I think you are in many ways to thank for that mechanism and success of fundraising. So, how do you see the evolvement of that? How do you see COVID affecting that? I'm interested to know what you've seen.

Daryl Upsall
Interesting thought, face-to-face. I mean, my own personality is always, as a kid, "Nothing is impossible”. And “Everything only to excess”. Those two mottos have their strengths and the weaknesses, certainly the latter. But it just meant if somebody said it couldn't be done, I would do it, both individually and professionally. When the first whisperings of telephone fundraising came into the UK, via the IFC conference in Holland, I said, I'm going to go with it, and helped co-found the first telephone fundraising agency and was the first client of the first agencies in the UK. I absolutely argued the case, against my peers in the sector who thought, no, this is too American. And guess what? It worked. The next thing was at Greenpeace. We were doing two things that was way ahead of time. Face-to-face fundraising, we invented in Austria 25 years ago. In fact, we were due to celebrate it with a big conference, from people around the world in the home city of Vienna, face-to-face last year but COVID put an end to that. We'll get onto that later. That has now since become the biggest single fundraising tool in the world. We have the data from the 20 or so largest nonprofits, biggest single recruiter of monthly donors. I'm sure impacts your work in your company because it's generating a massive number of auto payments.

The other was, and I was chatting with a colleague only yesterday about a conference we're going to put together on digital. In '93 Greenpeace was raising $50,000 a month online for the organization. I spoke in the UK at a conference in 1994. No single fundraising director had an email, knew what WWW stood for, or had ever visited anything called interweb. And, guess what? [Nonprofits survived amongst] COVID, not because of face-to-face that's been hard hit, but digital has boomed. Digital has absolutely skyrocketed, along with social, during COVID. I don't know. We’re always trying to be on the edge and always trying to bring something new to clients and that's often what people ask us for.

Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, to your point, it's interesting because we obviously saw last year, as one of the largest payment processors and solution providers to charities, we saw a massive increase in the adoption of digital and digital fundraising in general. But what was also interesting is when you looked in Canada versus the US, Canada has quite a high adoption rate of monthly and recurring giving program, whereas I wouldn't say it's mature in the US like it is in Europe where it is massively prevalent. Would you say it's the predominant fundraising mechanism? Certainly, in the UK or in Europe?

Daryl Upsall
In the entire world. Monthly giving, automatic payments through direct debit or credit card, in some countries is the biggest single gross earning source and, in fact, single biggest net earning because of course, once these payments are established, they go on and on. The Canada market I know very well, including in Vancouver, where you are, but also the wonderful AFP conference that takes place normally every year in Toronto. I would say Canadian fundraisers, for example, have taken on the best of the US. So wonderful at major gift, high net worth leadership giving, but have taken the European model, which started through Greenpeace, I have to say, of converting donors into monthly payors through the bank credit card. The US is still nowhere near.

Andrew Mosawi
I was speaking to this many, many years ago, we were talking about the donor pyramid. We were talking about the effects of monthly donors and whether it's part of the donor pyramid. What they said that I found fascinating, their contention was that it's not necessarily an entry point to the donor pyramid, it's unlikely that somebody coming and giving a recurring gift of five dollars, five pounds, two pounds, is going to become a major donor, however, because of the loyalty that they're showing, they're much more likely to become a legacy donor as an example. Would you agree with that?

Daryl Upsall
Absolutely. And that nonsense of the donor pyramid saying single donors become the major donors and the monthly donors don't. In fact, one of the interesting trends when I first came to Spain is I had the largest child sponsorship charities as our clients, and they still are. They said, “we don't have major donors”. And I said, “well, let's look at your database”. There were some women sponsoring 30 children at the equivalent of 20 US dollars per month per child. They were giving thousands per month but were sliding under the radar because there were multiple transactions. The other thing that is rarely calculated or certainly not calculated enough, is donor lifetime value, because, you know, somebody giving for 20 years at an ever-increasing monthly amount has given hundreds of thousands by the end of their lifetime, and then like you say, likely to leave a legacy.

Andrew Mosawi
Wow. So going back, I'm interested about what you think, in terms of the short-term impact [of COVID]. I think that's obviously very interesting. I think a lot of people are interested in that from a global perspective. But also, do you think it's fundamentally going to change the way that nonprofits operate in terms of how they fundraise?

Daryl Upsall
I think in the 12 months since we've had since lockdown there have been a lot of fundamental changes, and there has been a massive difference between the winners and losers. Most of our clients, the large international UN agencies, nonprofits with massive fundraising programs across 20, 30, 40, 50, 80, 90, 100 countries have done extremely well. Why? Because they switch their investment from their biggest donor acquisition and income generator being face-to-face. They flipped that money straight into digital, to direct response TV. They even flipped the teams. The people who are on the street normally asking for money and having conversations with donors, what are they going to do at home? Well, they talked to people, so they put them into their call centers, they set them up. You know, we had 200 callers from one Friday being in a call center to being live Monday morning in a whole different environment calling from home. Face-to-faces went into calling existing donors from home and calling out to their networks through social media. And were hugely successful at it. And we have seen clients growing 20-30% that they invested. And on the other side, I've seen organizations that I think will collapse. I believe 25% of all nonprofits in most mature markets will disappear in the next 12 months. Why? Because their leadership and board told them not to upset their donors by asking for money during COVID. Utterly stupid decision on their behalf.

Andrew Mosawi
Do you think when you say that they're going to disappear, do you think that they're going to consolidate? Because we've got in Canada actually, in general, in North America, there's a lot of consolidation happening with some of these lines, do you think that's going to happen? Or do you think that physically, they're just not going to, they're just going to stop fundraising.

Daryl Upsall
It's quite funny. For many years, at least three decades, I've usually said survival of the fittest. And the mega NGOs will become mega, more mega globalization will be the biggest trend. And I've argued, argue that mergers and takeovers would be the future. There is a massive upsurge in mergers. But let's be frank, it's like many mergers is actually a bigger partner who's got resources taking over smaller ones who may have databases, may have program work, but failed to survive these difficult times. So yes, there's going to be consolidation, for sure. Where there were 20 cancer charities, there might become five, where there are your 10 local food banks, which are in huge demand right now. Financially, they'll struggle, and they'll probably narrow down to one or two, etc.

That happened, by the way at the end of the last pandemic. HIV/AIDS organizations boomed around the world bringing care support counseling, before there were antiretroviral drugs. The minute they came out, there was no need for most HIV/AIDS organizations and they either closed or merged into the Terrence Higgins Trust. One of my funniest or strangest experiences was when Freddie Mercury died. We’re releasing Bohemian Rhapsody with Queen to raise money for the Terrence Higgins Trust. We put on a huge global conference at Wembley. I had to sit with my heroes of Queen around a table in our crappy offices, and go "No, we don't need another hospital wing called the Freddie Mercury Memorial Hospital wing". There will be no hospital wings. And as we've seen, there are no hospital wings of people with AIDS in most countries. Now, those hospitals are filled with COVID.

Andrew Mosawi
So, switching gears, in that 35, 37 years, sorry, sorry, to remind you.

Daryl Upsall
When there used to be hair.

Andrew Mosawi
What's interesting is that from a technology standpoint, you've seen things change and the landscape of the technology that is available to support charities to do this fundraising, it is evolved to an extent. You talk about recurring giving and the ability for organizations now to be supported by very complex infrastructure to manage you know, we have some customers that do 2, 3, 4 hundred thousand donations in a month. That didn't really exist 20 years ago. So, interested in what you see there, good and bad in terms of the technology and how that has supported the aspirations of the sector.

Daryl Upsall
Interesting question, Andrew. You know, I remember the excitement of when we got our first fax machine. Because can you imagine it was all teletext before. Everything had to be sent by couriers. We had bike couriers, motor carriers, even in the tiny little campaigning organizations, the fax machines were a revolution. Photocopiers changed our lives. We didn't have inky hands from these things that used to roll and spurt ink everywhere to make your leaflets.

Andrew Mosawi
I don't remember that,

Daryl Upsall
No, no, you're far too young. But those were big changes because actual fact, you know, even mailing letters out was not really fully industrialized in the UK till late 70s. I'd argue and it was still a pretty manual activity, unlike the US where it had blown up earlier. So, you have these kinds of archaic technologies. Then we started to get databases which by the way, were all financial service databases. This is pre-Blackbaud. You know, you had a database, and it will be from your accountancy company and pre-Salesforce, all of that. So, we knew a little about our donors and had their name and address. And if they had one change of a letter, it was another donor. Now we're doing, you know, data mining, we're doing artificial intelligence. We're doing all kinds of profiling activities.

You know, I own, don't run, co-own a digital agency in Spain and Italy. And the journey, I wouldn't say donor journey, the communication journey that goes on through Facebook is tailored to the profile of the individual. It's not one size fits all. That allows us to then make an ask that is actually an ask they've already more or less said yes to. I mean, technology is taking us a long way. The downside, because you did say downsides, is a lot of fundraisers hide behind computers. Many fundraisers have never met a donor. They've never actually asked anybody to give. They haven't necessarily given themselves, which I find disgusting, but that happens, and then, suddenly, we have storytellers. I'll see fundraising in cycles and great fundraising in direct mail was great storytelling, it's great writing. The George Smiths, the, you know, the heroes of the previous era, Roger Craver, you know, still going strong at his ripe age of late 70s. Now suddenly, people have to write really good copy, because you've got to write good copy for social media, you've got to write sharp copy, emotional copy, and tell great stories. So, some of the good stuff comes back. And it's the good stuff from the past.

Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, the story about not asking in fundraising, I remember being at a conference in the UK, and it was when it was a higher education conference. The culture of giving in higher education in the US is rich and long and well documented, and not so much in the UK. When I was talking to somebody who was leading the internal transformation for Oxford University, and they were saying, well, it's very simple, “the reason we don't have a culture of giving in higher education, is that we don't have a culture of asking”. Which I thought was interesting and very true. And kind of affirms what you've said.

Daryl Upsall
Oxford was the pioneer of modern major gift fundraising, alumni fundraising. I remember I happen to be by coincidence, when the first American leader of Oxford's fundraising set up his office in Oxford, I was there when he unpacked the boxes and what are they, they're computers with all kinds of things we could do with them. But the biggest challenge for Oxford and Cambridge where I went was actual fact, academic, God forbid, should I ask for money? Hell, no. Oh, heavens on Earth. But you know if you're a Stanford or Harvard alumni it's written into your contract. You're a fundraiser, you know, you have to get out there and ask.

Andrew Mosawi
Yeah. Do you have optimism for the sector?

Daryl Upsall
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it's, interesting. The sector is morphing a lot in my view. I was in an interesting debate the other day, whether the word charity is even applicable, and in which cultures it's applicable. It has a certain smell of, you know, the patronizing white northern, giving to the poor of the Africa or whatever. Now, I think we're raising money for social change. We're empowering the beneficiaries. So interesting, a lot of our work, even the development NGOs is seeing if even the Democratic Republic of Congo can help raise funds for its own needs, and on certain issues. The other thing is there's a massive move to the south. So, you know, I've seen the most exciting fundraising developments in the last 20 years in Thailand, in South Korea, which is perhaps not such a new market. Many people don't recall that actually World Vision one of the biggest nonprofits in the world and multibillion-dollar organization was founded in South Korea.

Andrew Mosawi
Oh, really? I didn't know that.

Daryl Upsall
Yes. I was invited by the South Korean government to help them develop a strategy with others on how to be the most prepared philanthropic and fundraising nation on the planet. At the opening and closing of the national event at the National Library each day, they showed videos of how World Vision had helped transform one of the poorest countries in the world as a donor beneficiary of aid to a donor granter of support to other countries. It wasn't just World Vision. Other big nonprofits came out of those markets. Plan International, a great development organization as well. Founded in Spain during the Civil War. Yes. And then thrown out by Franco for 15 years. Now China is my next big excitement.

Andrew Mosawi
Yeah, I know, you've written some really interesting papers on that. And I'm actually going to post those links as well, when we publish this talk because there's some of them, I was going through them recently and they're just they're just fascinating perspective. I have to say, I couldn't agree more.

I haven't been in the sector for nearly as long as you and haven't had nearly the impact that you've had. But even I have noticed, in my short time, the sheer resilience of the nonprofit sector. Everything that gets thrown at the sector, the resilience is given They are under resourced, overworked. You know, we saw in December, the biggest December in terms of processing of donations that we've ever had, certainly in as long as we've been keeping records, which tells us after COVID what an inspirational group of individuals that I certainly have the pleasure to work with every single day. It's forever inspirational and surprising.

Daryl Upsall
I agree. And it is resilient. But I'll say it's under attack as well. Funnily enough, we're about to publish an article about how the German, French and British government are all attacking the not for profit, social benefit, charitable sectors, by bringing in legislation that will make it harder to operate, largely because they don't want nonprofits criticizing any of the things that they do, which governments don't get right all the time. You may be surprised to hear. In India, you know, organizations like medicine, some frontier Doctors Without Borders, Greenpeace, Amnesty have all pretty much been closed down by the government there. Because they allegedly threaten state interests. China, which is a thriving, growing philanthropic nation, is not exactly welcoming organizations that might test the government on human rights. Funny enough, that China's a bit of a contradiction on that. It actually quite likes being tested on its environmental standards and has done for many years.

But I think that's one threat. And the other threat is actually the sector's complacency, sometimes it’s a threat to itself. We've seen the sexual abuse scandals in the development on profits, there is bullying, there is abuse, there is sexual harassment and the sector, I would say worldwide, and it's something I've tracked and been speaking on very recently has not done a great job at keeping its own house in order. So, we are we do great work. There are inspirational fundraisers that raise money, but the organizations still have a way to go to be the angels that they purport to be. And not the maybe, you know, not quite as good as they should be.

Andrew Mosawi
Well, isn't that just the case across so many sectors now? I think that's the positive thing there is that the visibility and the need to change and to be sort of inwardly analytical is more prevalent and relevant now more than ever.

Daryl Upsall
We get we get prompted. If we look at climate change, we've been prompted by a generation younger than you or me to stop the nonprofits but even being perhaps as complacent and slow in taking action. Black Lives Matter has raised many issues that we have not addressed as a sector, either internally or properly addressed externally. So, I'm excited. I'm optimistic. There are many mountains to climb. We have not crossed that mountain. We still have Dr. King's words echoing in our ears that we have many more mountains to climb before.

Andrew Mosawi
Yes,

Daryl Upsall
we get clear land.

Andrew Mosawi
Well, progress, not perfection.

Daryl Upsall
Yeah, exactly. That's true.

Andrew Mosawi
So, we're going to finish off. I'm going to ask now the same six questions the Quick Six to every single one of my guests. So, rapid fire, here we go.

Favorite app on your iPhone or your phone?

Daryl Upsall
Whatsapp, no question.

Andrew Mosawi
Your least favorite app on your phone?

Daryl Upsall
Oof, you know, I'm struggling with this one I put Tik Tok on the other day, but I couldn't even figure it, but it's got to be Twitter because it seems to cause more problems than benefit.

Andrew Mosawi
Right, okay. What song or movie captures Daryl Upsall?

Daryl Upsall
I'm going to give you two and they are interconnected. As a kid, “What a Wonderful World” by Louis Armstrong lifted me and inspired me. And if I hear it now, it brings joy and hope to me every day and I sing along. The one that follows that is “What's Going On” by Marvin Gaye recorded in 1971, highlighting all the social, racial, political problems of the day. And boy, you can listen to every word of that song, and still be angry, but inspired to make a difference.

Andrew Mosawi
Fantastic choices, love them. What is the first nonprofit organization that you remember as a child?

Daryl Upsall
The sea cubs and the sea scouts, I was a member of both, passionate, it taught me kayaking and sailing. And even only last night, I was kayaking in the canyons. It taught me camping. It taught me how to cook for large numbers of people. And my middle name is Baden.

Andrew Mosawi
Oh my goodness.

Daryl Upsall
Baden Powell, I got the honor of working for the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides movement, training them in fundraising since.

Andrew Mosawi
Well, before I get to the next one, I can attest to anyone that gets an invitation to be cooked for by Daryl is to, wherever you are accept the invitation because it is a treat. No doubt. So. Okay, what nonprofit trend are you watching carefully right now?

Daryl Upsall
I think we've pretty much covered that and that is China. And I've had the honor of working there. But I think the trend that I find fascinating is how does a nation of so big, so digital move from digital to offline fundraising. It doesn't know how to do that yet.

Andrew Mosawi
Interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. Okay, what profession other than your own would you have done? Would you like to attempt?

Daryl Upsall
I think you've given the game away actually. I would love to go into the catering industry to be a chef or play a role in that industry. My son trained as a Michelin Star chef. And now, as a 60-year-old man, I would like to follow in the footsteps of my young son.

Andrew Mosawi
How lovely. What a lovely way to put it as well. I'm also interested if you could, because you have you've traveled around the world, you've lived in Spain for many, many years. If you could live anywhere else. Where would you live?

Daryl Upsall
Spain.

Andrew Mosawi
Oh, wow. Okay, that was it?

Daryl Upsall
But if it was food, I feel that might be a different question. I think when it comes to it, Italy, and its different regional food takes some real beating. But I'd still live in Spain, the combination of the culture, the historical culture, the great food, the climate. And I must admit pretty good wine. Although, you know, Italy might have an edge in some places.

Andrew Mosawi
Daryl, thank you for taking the time. It's just fantastic to see you. It's great to catch up. Really appreciate it. Hopefully there comes a time when we can enjoy some great food in some in some part of the world together. I agree. Thank you, Andrew, for the opportunity to talk with you today. Speak soon. Take care. Cheers.